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Old 14-10-2009, 09:01 AM   #1
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If A Dealer sells A Car Do They Have To Give A Guarantee

Of any sort ?

I am sure they have to give 30 days or something ??

Im looking at an 96 Bentley as a bit of a project but wouldn want it failing on all the common stuff

TIA
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Old 14-10-2009, 09:17 AM   #2
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I'm not certain how the Sale of Goods Act applies to secondhand items , but I'd have thought it would still have to be 'of merchantable quality' and 'fit for purpose' , obviously with any declared faults/shortcomings excluded from liability .

You could , of course , commission your own engineer's report before purchasing , which may or may not carry some sort of liability should it turn out they failed to spot a defect they ought to have seen .
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Old 14-10-2009, 09:23 AM   #3
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Unless you plan to do EVERYTHING yourself and are a VERY competent mechanic, I hope you have deep pockets.
But good luck and enjoy the project.
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Old 14-10-2009, 09:31 AM   #4
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Pretty much what Pontoneer says and if you ask a direct question about something like is the gearbox ok and they say it is all fine if you later find out that they knew that the gearbox had faults you can take them to small claims court to get the money back. If your buying a Bentley though find someone local who specializes in that sort of car and get them to give it the once over if the garage is reputable they wont mind, even if it costs you a few quid its worth it for their opinion.
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Old 14-10-2009, 10:06 AM   #5
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Warranty - why not ask them ?
Just let them know that you are slightly concerned at buying something that could be a potentially serious money pit with no comeback at all. Even a confirmation that the engine/box running gear are sound would be a good start.

Does it start and drive with an MOT? If so take it for a good test drive to ensure you pick up any glaringly obvious issues, get it stinking hot and then test every electrical item, then test them again. I saw a RR steering rack being replaced at a local specialist and the job was over £1000

90's Bentleys range from £3k for an early Eight to £30k+ for a pristine Turbo RT. Most of the time a restoration project on that age Bentley is financially a poor choice as the costs will generally outweigh buying the more expensive car to begin with.

If you are doing it with the intention of having fun whilst restoring it then its a different matter entirely. If you complete a 2 year restoration and the eventual value of the car is £5k less than your outlay then a lot of folk would see £2.5k PA as a reasonable rate of depreciation on a large expensive car, moreso if they were having fun doing it.

I think I would definitely have something that expensive to repair inspected by a specialist with more knowledge than me regardless of the actual vehicle cost


AIMO of course


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Old 14-10-2009, 10:08 AM   #6
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Like has been said, anything the dealer says has to be true.. otherwise the car simply has to be fit for purpose, i.e drive in a straight line..

It all comes down to what a reasonable person would expect of the car taking into account age, mileage and price paid.

In my experience, I wouldnt expect the dealer to be very helpful if you went back to him with a 14 year old car moaning about wear and tear items.
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Old 14-10-2009, 11:08 AM   #7
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Thanks guys, Im thinking of a cosmetic project not a mechanical one but small things are ok.

I emailed the dealer who said a factory warranty could not be bought for such an old car BUT this isnt what i asked, I only want say 30 days to make sure its all solid.

In Liverpool there is a superb indie in Aigburth and I could get them to check it out but I wanted to ask the question first

So I guess I have to have an A4 sheet with questions on and go through them one by one ?
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Old 14-10-2009, 11:32 AM   #8
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Dealers CAN & DO sell motors without warranty under the "SOLD AS SEEN" basis

If it has no MOT then it would NOT be covered under the "Fit for Purpose" Sale of goods act as it clearly isn't " Fit for Purpose" having no MOT Cert
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Old 14-10-2009, 12:27 PM   #9
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As far as I understand, Dealers cant sell cars as Sold As Seen....what they can do in the instance of this Bentley, if it has no MOT, is sell it as Spares or Repairs and therefore without warranty.

If the car has an MOT, but is being sold at a real knock down rate, then again the dealer, to cover themselves, could also state that the car is being sold as spares or repairs. If this is the situation, I don't think that you can expect much in return from the dealer, ie you cant expect to buy something at a knock down price and then take it back to them when something goes wrong.....you need to do or get somebody to check the car out.

One thing I would check on a Bentley is the brakes.....with the engine started, pump the brakes a couple of times and if a warning light comes up....walk away......£3000 or more to refurbish the complex brake system. Also check for rust as they are expensive to repair and whilst youre at it, check the suspension.....ie should not be sagging on any one corner.
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Old 14-10-2009, 12:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hooded Claw View Post
Dealers CAN & DO sell motors without warranty under the "SOLD AS SEEN" basis

No so I'm afraid :



Taken from local government advice to motor traders

Quote:
Supply of Goods & Services Act 1982 ( as amended)

When a customer purchases any goods from a trader, those goods must be:-

 of satisfactory quality
 fit for their purpose and
 correctly described

If they are not, then the customer has legal rights including, in certain circumstances, the right to a full refund or repair. The law prohibits the display of statements which state or imply that a consumer with a justified complaint has no right of redress.

Examples of prohibited statements include, “no cash refunds”, “sold as seen and inspected”, “trade sale, no warranty”.

We advise giving the customer a copy of a Pre-delivery inspection sheet, both so that you have a signed record of any defects brought to the attention of the customer, and to ensure that a proper check of the vehicle is conducted before sale. You should keep records of all customer complaints and repairs in case there is a dispute over the quality of the vehicle sold, and the standard of after-sales service.

I am all for giving traders a fair crack with older cars - but the legislation is there to protect people from buying a bargain that is in reality far from one.
If a trader has a vehicle with faults that he brings to the attention of the buyer then he is covered and has nothing to fear.


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Old 14-10-2009, 01:19 PM   #11
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True legal position

Mark is bang on I checked this out prior to setting up our new venture as at some point we will be selling the odd car or two. The guy who is providing all our legal advice is a barrister who we know and has advised many law firms in the SOGA he advised the following


Whilst the phrase “sold as seen” is often referred to in the context of car dealers, it can actually be used in any situation where goods are sold. At this point, it should be noted that the rights only relate to transactions between buyers who are “Consumers” and sellers which are “Businesses”. The rights do not apply to transactions between Businesses

When dealing with, or as, a consumer, the phrase “sold as seen” is effectively meaningless. The term “sold as seen” can only be applied in a reasonable manner and can only apply to the way the goods look: something that can easily be seen on a visual inspection. If one takes the example of a car, advertised for sale as “sold as seen”, the exclusion on liability can only apply to external features, such as scratched or damaged bodywork. It is not reasonable to expect a faulty exhaust or clutch to be picked up on the basis of a visual examination.

Any warranty or guarantee can only be given in addition to their legal rights, not instead of them.

Furthermore, using the term ‘sold as seen’ in these circumstances may also be a criminal offence under the Consumer Transactions (Restrictions on Statements) Order. It could be seen as an attempt to restrict a consumer’s legal rights.

Other acts that apply are:-

Fair Trading Act - It is an offence to display any sign which tries to limit a buyer s rights. Do not use signs like No Refunds or Sold as Seen . As well
as being illegal, these signs do not, in fact, limit buyers rights at all.

Sale and Supply of Goods Act - If you sell something, whether new or second-hand, it should be of satisfactory quality and fit for its ordinary everyday purpose. It should also be as you describe it.

Price Marking Order - Traders must show a price in writing for all goods offered for sale. This can be attached to the goods, or be placed adjacent to them
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Old 14-10-2009, 01:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark300SL View Post
No so I'm afraid :



Taken from local government advice to motor traders




I am all for giving traders a fair crack with older cars - but the legislation is there to protect people from buying a bargain that is in reality far from one.
If a trader has a vehicle with faults that he brings to the attention of the buyer then he is covered and has nothing to fear.


Mark
Quite understand what you are saying here Mark but .....that is local government "ADVISE" it is not prohibiting them from using a "Sold As seen" sales pitch because if you look carefully it does not say "SOLD AS SEEN" it say "SOLD AS SEEN & INSPECTED" INSPECTED being the operative word..... In others words they "seen it, Inspected it, know its a NAIL & sold it anyway.

Last edited by The Hooded Claw; 14-10-2009 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 14-10-2009, 01:30 PM   #13
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As pointed out, the dealer cannot remove liability by stating "sold as seen" and so the consumer is still protected.

IMHO I suspect this is sometime used by traders to let customers know that a car may have problems that won't be rectified by the trader, and that the price reflects.

If those problems are made clear at the point of sale and the purchases chooses to complete the purchase in full knowledge of those problems - ideally stated on the receipt of payment - then it would be reasonable to expect that the trader would not be liable for fixing them.

If anything not specifically mentioned then it would be reasonable to expect the trader to repair if identified shortly after purchase.

Just my view of course.
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Old 14-10-2009, 01:34 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Bobby Dazzler View Post
As pointed out, the dealer cannot remove liability by stating "sold as seen" and so the consumer is still protected.

IMHO I suspect this is sometime used by traders to let customers know that a car may have problems that won't be rectified by the trader, and that the price reflects.

If those problems are made clear at the point of sale and the purchases chooses to complete the purchase in full knowledge of those problems - ideally stated on the receipt of payment - then it would be reasonable to expect that the trader would not be liable for fixing them.

If anything not specifically mentioned then it would be reasonable to expect the trader to repair if identified shortly after purchase.

Just my view of course.
SPOT ON BOBBY Thats EXACTLY what they do!!!!
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Old 14-10-2009, 01:49 PM   #15
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Guys this isnt a banger (Im hurt)

enjoyed by the second owner for the last 10 years and correctly maintained up to date with a full history portfolio and hand books including recent MOT inspection test tyres and service with document the vehicles low mileage of 70k, he vehicle is currently running and driving very well with good oil pressure smooth gear change and the electric items are working and the ash trays and lighters are unused.
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