Legitimate policing or big brother attitude?

[BonzoDog]

Originally Posted by nick mercedes

Iraq for example.

Why UK drivers allow ourselves to be treated like this is beyond me.

Er last time I checked Iraq was not in Europe.

[Swiss Toni]

Originally Posted by nick mercedes

All these cameras and roadside checks point to slack policing on the cheap...

Rather than proper police we'll just end up with a "computer says no" system which relies on people to prove their innocence rather than the other way around.

The ANPR database will indicate a vehicle is used by a known burglar - when they stop it and find your telly on the back seat, they stand a good chance of getting locked up....

As for "Policing on the cheap" - you want Policing on the expensive???!!!

Maybe you need to spend some time with Timmy?

[nick mercedes]

Originally Posted by BonzoDog

Er last time I checked Iraq was not in Europe.

You know what I mean though?

[Shude]

Originally Posted by glojo

We can all make scenario's to suit our arguments

What frustrates me about this is the "we don't know who the criminals are so we're going to stop everyone and ask them to prove they're innocent" attitude.

It's not good police work and it's not exactly efficient use of anyone's time.

I watched a show about traffic cops (most likely "Traffic Cops" ) and one of the afforementioned traffic cops said that he only had to look out for people driving without seatbelts, 99% of them have something dodgy about them. He proved this by waiting for the next car with a driver not wearing a seatbelt, who was immediately pulled over. After some sob-story or other the occupants were made to exit the vehicle and walk while a transporter was called to remove the vehicle: no insurance, MOT, tax etc!

Now that almost seems like police work to me!

[BTB 500]

Originally Posted by nick mercedes

All these cameras and roadside checks point to slack policing on the cheap...

I don't agree. They are finally able to start enforcing some laws e.g. road tax, MOT, insurance, etc. in an effective way - how is that a bad thing? The woman who lived opposite me deliberately drove without tax for years and years. She told me quite openly that the chance of getting caught was tiny, and if she did the fine would be less than she'd have had to pay in road tax. Did she have insurance and MOT? No idea, but not having to produce the documents would surely make it tempting not to bother.

[Swiss Toni]

Originally Posted by nick mercedes

You know what I mean though?

I suspect we still have the best Cops in the world, and (don't know if you travel abroad much?) but most people in the rest of the world just can't understand how British Police can do their job without being in possession of a gun?

[nick mercedes]

Originally Posted by Swiss Toni

The ANPR database will indicate a vehicle is used by a known burglar

That's a little bit suss as well, surely we as a society should not assume that all criminals are repeat criminals, and harass them on the off chance that they're at it again?

[Swiss Toni]

Originally Posted by Shude

What frustrates me about this is the "we don't know who the criminals are so we're going to stop everyone and ask them to prove they're innocent" attitude.

But they don't stop everyone - they target the cars they stop and spend time with based on the information that they have access to (and they don't have to tell the driver why they are spending more time with them than the next chap - its all part of the investigation!!

(Lets not mix up TV shows - even edited reality type ones - with what happens in real life )

[Swiss Toni]

Originally Posted by nick mercedes

That's a little bit suss as well, surely we as a society should not assume that all criminals are repeat criminals, and harass them on the off chance that they're at it again?

You are 100% right.

That is why the Cop has to investigate.

[Swiss Toni]

Originally Posted by nick mercedes

That's a little bit suss as well, surely we as a society should not assume that all criminals are repeat criminals, and harass them on the off chance that they're at it again?

Also - not simply those with previous convictions, but where there is intelligence that they are currently active...

You haven't seen that on TV? No? It's not sexy, but it is effective.

[Swiss Toni]

(Tells self to calm down, post rate getting too high... )

Good debate tho.

[andy_k]

I would much rather have seen these police resources being used as Spike suggested. Wandering around Maidstone and Chatham's housing estates where the cars get parked and dealing with them BEFORE they were used on the roads. Stopping them once they are using them is not enough they should be addressing the problem at it's source.

How about the police hit an area in the small hours of the morning and clamp every non taxed car whilst the owners are sleeping then come around the next day and complete the paperwork.

Stopping drug dealers and other criminals isn't going to be addressed with random road blocks becauase that isn't what the police are looking for despite what they may say. Unless I am very much mistaken they tend to ask "motoring" based questions rather than searching you for drugs.

It would be equally productive but much less of a PR exercise to follow my shopping centre suggestion just think, they are bound to find a few who are wanted especially if they did it on a Saturday afternoon when the shops were really busy

If I get stopped, then I'm happy to co-operate and glad to see the police are doing their job but I totally disagree with "computer policing" like we are seeing here.

If the computer systems were more reliable then I'm sure I'd be less critical but have a look around the net using EDS and CSA, DVLA etc as the basis of your search and you may just begin to doubt the wisdom of such methods.

It was an EDS system computer at the DWP which told me I didn't exist last year My tax records had disappeared (even though I was querying a bill they had sent me that week). My National Insurance number apparently belonged to someone else (even though I pay it monthly on Direct Debit) and they could findd no record of me on their database.

This took nearly 6 weeks to resolve before they admitted they had made a mistake and typed in one digit of a refereence number incorrectly. If that was a roadside check we would have lost the car.

Guilty because the computer says so until proven innocent doesn't quite sound as good as Innocent until proven guilty.

Andy

[Swiss Toni]

Originally Posted by andy_k

Stopping drug dealers and other criminals isn't going to be addressed with random road blocks becauase that isn't what the police are looking for despite what they may say. Unless I am very much mistaken they tend to ask "motoring" based questions rather than searching you for drugs.

Guilty because the computer says so until proven innocent doesn't quite sound as good as Innocent until proven guilty.

Andy

Andy

You are mistaken.

These Cops are motivated to arrest the Burglars and Drug Dealers - but motoring offences are often a good indicator of further criminal activity, and anyway, if they don't have insurance, they deserve to lose their car!!

[BonzoDog]

Originally Posted by nick mercedes

You know what I mean though?

Call me stupid or call me Shirley but sorry I don't know what you mean.
Other European motorists should be stopped and not UK motorists?
Given that most of us willingly submit to airport security checks which I suspect add far, far more delay than the car stops and that there is about a 3,000,000,000 to 1 (my rough calculation) chance of a terorist passing through a check, what the Kent Police are doing seems like a pretty good job.
Stupid or Shirley.

[bibamus]

These multi agency road checks have been going on for years, more and more though, have the anpr equipment in use to help stop inconveniencing innocent law abiding drivers. Police also physically select vehicles for stopping using their own experience of dealing with vehicles.
But, whats wrong with carrying your driving documents around with you ( I dont, I`m just asking the question!!) They dont need to be left in the car, so there is no question of them being stolen with the vehicle. Most people carry around a wallet or purse/handbag, full of credit cards, receipts, bits of paper, etc. The new driving licence is easy to carry now ( you dont need both parts all the time) your MOT certificate incorporates a sticker that you can affix to the windscreen, so that leaves one sheet of A4 paper ( ins cert) that you may need to carry, folded up in your wallet/purse. Not a major logistical problem, is it?
Drivers in the USA generally carry these about anyway, French and German and probably more EU countries, motorists display their insurance details on the car windscreen.

I suggest if you have a problem being stopped by the Police at these road checks, there is probably an underlying reason for it!

And, yes, running road check like this ( as well as speed cameras etc) is probably lazy policing, but this is because Police Forces are now run by accountants who demand value for money not the fare paying customers ( you and me) who demand an effective impartial Police Service.

Allan