SAP Bluetooth and Nokia N95

[grufflybear]

Why did I give myself this brain ache... having had a Motorola V3i working brilliantly through Command I bought a new phone (somebody tell me why !!!) the dreaded Nokia N95. Having thought I had researched enough to establish that it would work if I also installed the MB bluetooth SAP device in place of the motorola cradle I also bought one of those. All went to plan and they found each other when I followed the instructions in the manual.. I even got the full 16 digit code displayed on the Command system (March 07 E class)... the phone accepted the code number but will they pair up... you bet they wont, about as willing to mate as Giant Pandas. I have spent enough time re-trying for the moment so I have bunged a spare sim in the SAP and now have a very expensive car phone with a different number to my mobile. I note that others have had similar difficulties and already fried my brain with the 3G 2G issue.... so aside from getting my frustration off my chest and thinking I could have had a week in Spain with the cost of all this I wondered if anybody had any recent ideas on how to get the recalcitrant pair to "marry"...

ps... I have also checked that the phone has the latest firmware avaialble etc.. and why did I chose the wretched N95... well it has a really good camera....

[amwebby]

Who is your network provider? If it is a 3G network then it won't work with SAP as the basis of SAP is that the car takes over the phone functions, getting authorisation to do this from your SIM card. This it can't do with a purely 3G network. It functioned, but badly, on my O2 network in dual mode and I had to switch it to GSM mode only for it to work efficiently.

It would have worked before with your Motorola cradle as this is purely a limitation of the SAP protocol.

[Diesel Benz]

As amwebby explains, if you have a 3 network subscription, no phone would work with the BT SAP device.

Your spare SIM must be from one of the other UK networks, have you tried that on the N95?

Do you have the V1 or the V2 BT SAP device? N95 should work with both except that I'm not sure about phone book download. Somehow I remember some forum member reporting also phone book from phone memory being downloaded (not only the SIM card phone book).

If you do have a 3 SIM-card and you cannot change that to another network, you would probably have to change the BT SAP device to a BT HF device (I've understood N95 would not necessarily download phone book in BT HF mode, those who have this pair of devices can report details).

I find it odd when you say it does not pair after the 16 digit code has been entered. How do you know it isn't paired? Have you looked at the BT menu on the phone for active devices? I assume the BT connection would not be disconnected even if you were on 3, you would just not get service (but I haven't had a chance to test this).

[amwebby]

I'm pretty sure a 3G SIM would work when placed in the SAP cradle, as the SAP BT protocol isn't being used. So, if 3 network supplies dual SIMs this is one option.

Otherwise I'd be taking the cradle back and swapping it for an HFP one. Be aware that this does not handle the calls via the car's phone controller and associated aerial. All calls take place via the phone and its aerial, which may not be as strong a signal. Your car effectively becoes a giant headset for the phone with only audio signals being passed to the car with HFP.

[Diesel Benz]

Originally Posted by amwebby

I'm pretty sure a 3G SIM would work when placed in the SAP cradle, as the SAP BT protocol isn't being used. So, if 3 network supplies dual SIMs this is one option.

Again, I have not had any opportunity to verify this but it would still be a GSM-only phone even if the 3 SIM-card was placed to the BT SAP SIM holder and 3 should not accept the phone (the network would see the phone exactly the same independently if BT SAP was used or if the same SIM card was placed to the SAP device).

[amwebby]

Like you I don't know for sure but presumably 3 Network SIM cards worked with the Motorola cradle. As the 3G limitation is purely a SAP limitation and SAP isn't being used when a SIM card is placed in the cradle it should work just the same as any other fixed handset. It is not a limitation of the network but the SAP communication between SIM card and cradle.

[Diesel Benz]

Originally Posted by amwebby

Like you I don't know for sure but presumably 3 Network SIM cards worked with the Motorola cradle. As the 3G limitation is purely a SAP limitation and SAP isn't being used when a SIM card is placed in the cradle it should work just the same as any other fixed handset. It is not a limitation of the network but the SAP communication between SIM card and cradle.

What Motorola cradle do you mean? A dual mode (GSM/UMTS) phone on a cradle would work fine with 3 (even if the car antenna did not cover the 2.1 GHz frequency).

SAP as such is "just a protocol" between a phone (the MB BT SAP device) and another device holding the SIM card (typically another phone). The BT SAP connection emulates the SIM card being in the SIM holder of the phone even if it in real life is placed to another device and used over a BT connection. The BT SAP protocol would work fine with UMTS phones too.

The real limiting factor with the MB (Peiker) BT SAP implementation is that the BT SAP device only includes a (cheap) dual band (GSM 900/DCS1800) GSM phone. If this device did support both GSM and UMTS, it would work fine on 3 networks too.

The original poster can probably test it easily (assuming his issue was from the 3G-only network SIM card).

[amwebby]

Thanks for the clarification. My assumption was the the limitation was in the SAP protocol, not the cradle itself. I'm still puzzled though. You say the SAP device should support UMTS then go on to say the cradle doesn't include support for this?

By original Motorola I meant the Motorola fixed cradle being used with the V3i, if this is on the 3 network and was working with the car's phone controller then I assumed the BT SAP device, with a SIM card inserted, would work the same way. I also assumed grufflybear had obtained a second SIM from the same network, which he was using in the SAP cradle.

Unfortunately I don't have a 3 SIM to test any of this. My O2 card operates in GSM, UMTS or dual mode. With either of the latter two selected it works with the BT SAP device but all sound quality is extremely poor. As this is a Network option I will try placing this in UMTS, placing the SIM in the BT SAP cradle and see what the results are.

[Diesel Benz]

Originally Posted by amwebby

Thanks for the clarification. My assumption was the the limitation was in the SAP protocol, not the cradle itself. I'm still puzzled though. You say the SAP device should support UMTS then go on to say the cradle doesn't include support for this?

By original Motorola I meant the Motorola fixed cradle being used with the V3i, if this is on the 3 network and was working with the car's phone controller then I assumed the BT SAP device, with a SIM card inserted, would work the same way. I also assumed grufflybear had obtained a second SIM from the same network, which he was using in the SAP cradle.

Unfortunately I don't have a 3 SIM to test any of this. My O2 card operates in GSM, UMTS or dual mode. With either of the latter two selected it works with the BT SAP device but all sound quality is extremely poor. As this is a Network option I will try placing this in UMTS, placing the SIM in the BT SAP cradle and see what the results are.

My text was confusing, my claim was that the BT SAP protocol should work for UMTS equally well as for GSM. The MB BT SAP device does not support UMTS radio interface which is a problem.

There is this USIM too that has security enhancements. USIMs are supported by current GSM-only phones too but I actually do not know if the BT SAP protocol has been extended for USIM (I assume so).

Your Motorola V3i must have been 3G capable, which makes it different from the MB BT SAP phone (with SIM inserted).

[amwebby]

Not my Motorola, but grufflybear's. Still trying to understand this so bear (no pun intended!) with me. Is a 3G capable phone in a fixed cradle using the phone to manage the connection with the network?

[grufflybear]

Thank you all so far for above... Yes the MB phone does show on the N95 as a paired device but when you then selcet it to actually connect it just give a message that the connection is not possible, and certainly does not actually function. Yes it is V2 SAP.. I am on Vodafone have checked phone and at the moment it is running "dual" which means it uses 3g but I can change it to use GSM which would be fine when in the car as I wouldn't want to use the internet stuff anyway. So... armed with above info I will try again later with phone set to GSM only.... placing my normal sim card in the BT SAP works fine so it must just be down to the way the handset communicates to allow BT SAP to access the sim card.... sounds too like I could have used the V3i cradle which has bluetooth even though fucntionality would have been more limited... in reality it would have been perfectly adequate...

thanks again for prompt replies

[Alfie]

I havnt read through all this yet but I do know there is an issue with the SAP cradle on the 3 network because they use a different frequency to everyone else. Richard can explain it better than me.

[amwebby]

Originally Posted by grufflybear

Thank you all so far for above... Yes the MB phone does show on the N95 as a paired device but when you then selcet it to actually connect it just give a message that the connection is not possible, and certainly does not actually function. Yes it is V2 SAP.. I am on Vodafone have checked phone and at the moment it is running "dual" which means it uses 3g but I can change it to use GSM which would be fine when in the car as I wouldn't want to use the internet stuff anyway. So... armed with above info I will try again later with phone set to GSM only.... placing my normal sim card in the BT SAP works fine so it must just be down to the way the handset communicates to allow BT SAP to access the sim card.... sounds too like I could have used the V3i cradle which has bluetooth even though fucntionality would have been more limited... in reality it would have been perfectly adequate...

thanks again for prompt replies

Both my O2 SIM and Vodafone SIM do not work well via SAP Bluetooth when set to dual mode. Once I switch them to GSM only everything is fine. Hope it works for you.

[Diesel Benz]

Originally Posted by amwebby

Both my O2 SIM and Vodafone SIM do not work well via SAP Bluetooth when set to dual mode. Once I switch them to GSM only everything is fine. Hope it works for you.

Yes, if it after all is "a normal Vodafone SIM", it sounds odd if the N95 would not work with this SIM card and the V2 BT SAP device.

[Diesel Benz]

Originally Posted by grufflybear

Thank you all so far for above... Yes the MB phone does show on the N95 as a paired device but when you then selcet it to actually connect it just give a message that the connection is not possible, and certainly does not actually function. Yes it is V2 SAP.. I am on Vodafone have checked phone and at the moment it is running "dual" which means it uses 3g but I can change it to use GSM which would be fine when in the car as I wouldn't want to use the internet stuff anyway. So... armed with above info I will try again later with phone set to GSM only.... placing my normal sim card in the BT SAP works fine so it must just be down to the way the handset communicates to allow BT SAP to access the sim card.... sounds too like I could have used the V3i cradle which has bluetooth even though fucntionality would have been more limited... in reality it would have been perfectly adequate...

thanks again for prompt replies

I'm puzzled when you say "it does not work when you actually try to connect". Do you mean place a call or do you mean connecting from the phone BT menu to the BT SAP device? The latter should not be needed, instead it is the MB phone that connects to the N95, you should have the N95 BT on, set to SAP mode and allow automatic connection from the MB phone.