Advanced driver: are you one?

[jukie]

Equivalent of RoSPA through my job.

[Pontoneer]

Originally Posted by JumboBeef

I am assuming that the speed limit before the 30 sign is higher, maybe a 60 NSL.

You couldn't slow down from 60 to 30 using acceleration sence.

Using the 'speed gear acceleration' part of the the system, I would have been in 4th at 60, then brake correctly to 30, off the brakes just before the 30 sign, clutch in, into third, clutch out. The car in front might still slow to 30, and then hit the brakes even more when seeing the camera, so is still a hazard.

Assuming you are approaching a built up area from a country road - you will see the 'signs of habitation' from a considerable distance , quite possibly the signs too and can 'read them for 30' before you can actually read them . Even easier if you're just coming down from 40 to 30 .

Even if you had come round a bend to find the 30 signs 100 yds away , you would normally still have had some idea you were approaching a built up area and already be slowing accordingly .

With observation and anticipation , it is perfectly possible to decelerate from 60 to 30 without needing to touch the brakes . Most manual vehicles I have driven are also quite happy in 4th at 30 - unless you need to go much slower I wouldn't use 3rd .

Non-advanced drivers tend not to do the above : while you are slowing in a timely manner to arrive at the signs doing 30 - they will have been pressing on , braking late and usually opening up a gap in front of you .

[rees_A]

Nope

[JumboBeef]

Originally Posted by Pontoneer

With observation and anticipation , it is perfectly possible to decelerate from 60 to 30 without needing to touch the brakes . Most manual vehicles I have driven are also quite happy in 4th at 30 - unless you need to go much slower I wouldn't use 3rd .

So you would use engine braking to slow you down from 60 to 30, in 4th.....?

Originally Posted by Pontoneer

Non-advanced drivers tend not to do the above : while you are slowing in a timely manner to arrive at the signs doing 30 - they will have been pressing on , braking late and usually opening up a gap in front of you .

That is what I would do. Drive the road, staying at 60, then firmly brake to 30, off the brakes before the 30 sign, into 3rd and drive the 30.

[wemorgan]

I thought using your brakes when entering a slower speed zone was recommended, even if you did not require to use the brakes yourself, since it sends a safety message to the car behind you (if applicable), who may not have noticed the speed signs.

[flanaia1]

You are all making a lot of assumptions here on what you can see before the picture, which in this context is irrelevant its the hazards in the pic I was speaking of.

One of the golden rules of advanced driving NEVER touch the brakes unless you absolutely have to do so as it unbalances the car and you lose stability. So assuming the road before the 30 mph sign was straight, clear and visibilty was good then you would use accelaration sense to arrive at the speed limit sign at or below the posted limit if possible, which might not always be the case due to conditions and other road users.

[st4]

Originally Posted by JumboBeef

So you would use engine braking to slow you down from 60 to 30, in 4th.....?

I would do this

Originally Posted by JumboBeef

That is what I would do. Drive the road, staying at 60, then firmly brake to 30, off the brakes before the 30 sign, into 3rd and drive the 30.

Can you elaborate.

I see the following issues.

1) your scenario is less fuel efficient (more time at 60mph rather than on the overun using purely momentum to travel the distance to the 30 zone)
2) sorer on the car (hard braking)-thought mechanical sympathy was a big part of advanced driving
3) not nearly as smooth - priority number 2 of good driving (after safety)
4) potentially not as safe if the brakes fail (unlikely), upsets the balance of the car (as Ian has said), and if some numpty behind you not paying attention a recipe for a rear ender.

I would maybe at 40mph apply the brakes just to put the lights on, but not to actually really slow the car down. If slowing to 20mph I'd apply the brakes as to avoid the harsh down change in my automatic transmission from 4-3 which occurs at 25-27mph.

Do you accelerate equally as vigerously back up to the NSL?

[wemorgan]

Originally Posted by flanaia1

One of the golden rules of advanced driving NEVER touch the brakes unless you absolutely have to do so as it unbalances the car and you lose stability.

playing Devil's Advocate: does braking at 0.5g unbalance the car any more than accelerating at 0.5g? Steady state is is clearly the most stable, but cars are designed to turn, brake and accelerate.

As an aside I sat in a meeting today where a far-east car was benchmarked for ride and handling. It was revealed that it had the undesirable feature of over-steering when fully laden, despite being a copy of a western car which safely under-steered. My Golden Rule for that car would be NEVER pick up keys.

[flanaia1]

Originally Posted by wemorgan

playing Devil's Advocate: does braking at 0.5g unbalance the car any more than accelerating at 0.5g? Steady state is is clearly the most stable, but cars are designed to turn, brake and accelerate.

Deceleration unbalances the car more than accelaration, thats why most racetrack drama's occur on breaking into the bend rather than accelarating out of it.

In this instance on that stretch of road then you would proably never notice and the car would feel pretty stable anyway, but why use the brakes if you don't need to?

[Pontoneer]

Originally Posted by JumboBeef

So you would use engine braking to slow you down from 60 to 30, in 4th.....?

Absolutely - that is the method we always taught both for IAM and LSD (RoSPA).

It gives a much smoother , more relaxed drive , better for passenger comfort , greater mechanical sympathy for the car , minimises chances of a 'chain reaction' of increasingly severe braking by following traffic , and is more economic both in terms of fuel used as well as wear on brake components .

This works equally as well in automatics as in manual : it is a case of learning the deceleration characteristics of your car - there is no reason why you could not decelerate from a three figure speed on a motorway or dual carriageway to 30 or even 20 to enter a lower speed limit or negotiate a roundabout .

Originally Posted by JumboBeef

That is what I would do. Drive the road, staying at 60, then firmly brake to 30, off the brakes before the 30 sign, into 3rd and drive the 30.

Unless your car is unhappy in 4th , why drop to 3rd to cruise at the maximum permitted speed ? Most cars will travel along at 30 in 4th on a level road . You only need to drop to 3rd for flexibility if speed is going to drop significantly lower because of hazards such as pedestrians , other traffic , restricted space .

[p1ssdoffuser]

Hi, wonder if I may say my ha'penny's worth.

I've never read so much BS in my life. As if any one has ever tried driving at 30 mph anyway. (except for those that do it in a 60 limit)
But not braking to avoid unbalancing the car, is just bloody dangerous.
What about brake lights? How would the person behind know what your doing? (OR GOING TO DO)
If your talking about advanced driving, its simple things like this to consider.

Cars are 'slightly' more stable under light acceleration because the weight is transfered to the rear wheels, braking its toward the front, braking on a corner it is mostly on the one front wheel. Thats why you brake before a corner.

If anyone wants proper advice, talk to a proper driving instructor. The ones that are trained for the Dept for Transport.

Would upset so many people to know the training required and skills needed.
Because they mostly teach learners, people underestimate them. And foolishly look elsewhere.

[Pontoneer]

Originally Posted by p1ssdoffuser

Hi, wonder if I may say my ha'penny's worth.

I've never read so much BS in my life. As if any one has ever tried driving at 30 mph anyway. (except for those that do it in a 60 limit)

Speak for yourself ! I ALWAYS drive at or below the posted limits ( unless on my way to a fire , when I can claim exemption )

Originally Posted by p1ssdoffuser

But not braking to avoid unbalancing the car, is just bloody dangerous.
What about brake lights? How would the person behind know what your doing? (OR GOING TO DO)

I never said anything about avoiding braking 'to avoid unbalancing the car' - however as a QUALIFIED advanced driving instructor ( I undertook the Potential Instructor course at the Scottish Police College ) I always teach " The first method of braking is by acceleration sense , the second by using the brakes " .

By using acceleration sense ( backing off the throttle early as soon as you realise the need to slow for a hazard ) you save fuel , you slow down in a gradual and timely manner ( so that following traffic will not be taken by surprise - following drivers should also be reading the road ahead and realising the need to slow down so your slowing should come as no surprise to them - as an advanced driver I often find myself slowing before the driver in front who carries on at unabated speed , opening up a gap in front of me , then brakes hard and late ) , you save wear and tear on your brake components which are used that much less , and your passengers get a more comfortable and relaxing ride .

Of course , it isn't always possible to slow for a hazard SOLELY by acceleration sense , sometimes progressive application of the brakes will be neccessary , particularly approaching a hazard on a downhill stretch , but again , with proper forward observation and realising the need to slow earlier then the technique can be perfected . If neccessary , brakes can be used as an adjunct to acceleration sense .

Originally Posted by p1ssdoffuser

Cars are 'slightly' more stable under light acceleration because the weight is transfered to the rear wheels, braking its toward the front, braking on a corner it is mostly on the one front wheel. Thats why you brake before a corner.

Agreed .

Originally Posted by p1ssdoffuser

If anyone wants proper advice, talk to a proper driving instructor. The ones that are trained for the Dept for Transport.

Would upset so many people to know the training required and skills needed.
Because they mostly teach learners, people underestimate them. And foolishly look elsewhere.

I certainly have no quarrels with the numerous driving instructors I know , most of them also tend to be at least IAM standard , if not better . I also know a couple of Dept of Transport Driving EXAMINERS - they all have to undergo an advanced course similar in standard to the Police one at their training centre in Cardington . So , certainly no looking down noses at 'learner' instructors from me .

[JumboBeef]

Some interesting points raised here.

The first thing I would say (as I’ve already said before) is I work for, and was trained by the ambulance service. The advanced driving techniques we are trained in are progressive driving and emergency driving.

With progressive driving, you are expected to make progress through the traffic to your destination as safely and as quickly as possible.

Assuming that the speed limit before that 30 is a straight, clear NSL 60, I would be travelling at 60. It has been suggested that the correct way to slow to 30 is to stay in 4th (or even 5th…?) and use acceleration sense to slow down. I have two issues with this:

Firstly, Roadcraft states (page 72): ‘use the brakes if you need to make more than a gradual adjustment to your road speed’. Slowing from 60 to 30 as a ‘gradual adjustment’ is a very slow process. In fact, I timed it this morning on the way into work: I slowed from 60 to 30. It took more than a third of a mile and 33 seconds. If I slowed like that during either my training or during driving assessments, my instructor would be saying <Sergeant Major Mode>What do you think you’re doing? We’re not out for a bloody Sunday drive!</Sergeant Major Mode> We were told to use acceleration sense but to never forget that the engine is for going faster and the brakes are for going slower.

What are the benefits of using acceleration sense instead of braking? Improved MPG. Less wear and tear on the vehicle.

Disadvantages: slow progress to destination. Holding other traffic up.

From an ambulance service point of view, we don’t care about either MPG or wear and tear. THE most important thing is to make progress to patient/base/standby point/hospital. Firm braking which is appropriate to the prevailing road conditions gives you progress (unless of course you have a patient on board who needs you to drive as if you have Miss Daisy in the back). Note, I said ‘firm’ braking, not harsh.

Once at 30, 3rd or 4th gear….? Again, being in fourth has the advantages of improved MPG and less wear and tear, but being in 3rd gives you better acceleration sense, and better response to hazards as required (so, better MPG verses better vehicle control). Driven correctly, 3rd is just as smooth as 4th.

I’m not saying anyone here is wrong: there are different types of advanced driving. I have been trained in progressive driving and that is how I drive in my own vehicle too. If you were to travel with me you would find that I drive as close to the speed limits whenever possible safely (my own personal exception to this is I tend to stick to 60ish on the motorway in my own car because it saves me a fortune in petrol!) and my drives tend to be more ‘spirited’ than it seems other advanced drivers here undertake.

(For the record, if I was approaching that 30 sign from a NSL 60 on an emergency drive, this is what I would do: travel at 80-90, brake on approach to the 30 sign, change the siren from howl to yelp, off brakes and select gear then drive though at 40-50 (in 3rd at 40 or 4th at 50). This is of course dependant on surrounding hazards.

[Pontoneer]

I suppose that highlights the difference between an emergency response drive where progress is imperative ( within the constraints of still being safe ) and a 'normal' drive where observation , planning and smoothness are the watchwords .

Certainly , if I'm hurrying to a job , I will maintain speed longer and brake later , perhaps driving slightly above a speed limit - if safe to do so - but then my attendance in a support role is not as urgent as that of an ambulance or front line appliance would be .

Whilst I do enjoy 'making progress' out on the open roads , if I have passengers then I adopt a smoother and less stressful driving style .

When teaching advanced driving to civilians , we always taught use of acceleration sence because it teaches forward observation and planning .

[JumboBeef]

Originally Posted by Pontoneer

I suppose that highlights the difference between an emergency response drive where progress is imperative ( within the constraints of still being safe ) and a 'normal' drive where observation , planning and smoothness are the watchwords .

My posting was based on 'normal' driving, not emergency driving. You come out with me and you'll see all the observation, planning and smoothness you could possibly want I just get there a bit quicker