W203 Outside Temp Guage View

[skymastor]

Eyup all,

Here's something that is bugging me and I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts or knowledge with this :confused:

In the display on my W203, I have displayed in the bottom left the speed in digital format, as I would assume everyone else's does, right? OK, in the vehicle manual, is states that you can change this to display the outside temperature if you wish (which I would prefer to do) but it also states not in the UK!! When I navigate through the menu to change this, low and behold the manual is correct! :mad: When my vehicle was in a stealer's to have some coding done using Star the other week, I asked them to look at this to give me the option in the menu to change it. They told me they could not do it because the display unit would not support it!!! :mad:

I did read in a thread the other day (which I cannot now find again!) that someone else was also looking into this too. I was wondering if anyone knows what the craic is with this and if it is possible to do? Also, could the stealer be right or were they reluctant to do it or maybe not skilled enough on the Star to perform the change? Who knows? Does anyone?

Its my car and I would like to have displayed what I wish to choose! Why don't I have the option like other countries?

Rant over.... :)

[television]

UK or EU regs state that a car must display both MPH and KMH at the same time, if you speedo has no KPH then it cant be changed

[skymastor]

I can't check just now cos i'm still in Germany, but I do recall I can change that display into KPH.. Still no option to change it into outside temp thou!! :crazy:

[crockers]

You can have it changed -- I have.

You can then elect to either display KPH or temperature.....Its a STAR change and if you have the facelifted cars it should support that.

Have a PM to Richard or Alfie they can tell you if this is the case or not....

You can also then elect to switch between metric and imperial ........

[mw_C32]

UK or EU regs state that a car must display both MPH and KMH at the same time, if you speedo has no KPH then it cant be changed

Er! I and many others on here have tried to get this changed over the years but as far as I'm aware EU regs state that a car must be able to display both MPH and KPH not necessarily at the same time. :o

All Euro cars only display KPH with the option to change the display from outside temp to MPH as needed.

See one thread here....

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=29801

I had an imported UK spec c class and that could be changed. All my other cars could not.

Mark.

[rf065]

You can have it changed -- I have.

You can then elect to either display KPH or temperature.....Its a STAR change and if you have the facelifted cars it should support that.

Have a PM to Richard or Alfie they can tell you if this is the case or not....

You can also then elect to switch between metric and imperial ........


I can choose to display km or temp through the menu system. If I choose temp, km is still displayed as seen in the pic. Temp would normally be where hours etc are shown, but point is that temp cannot be shown at expense of km (legally I assume).

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh242/rf065/501mpg.jpg

[R2D2]

UK or EU regs state that a car must display both MPH and KMH at the same time, if you speedo has no KPH then it cant be changed

Errr

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=9495

This can done and once done the kph becomes switchable:rock:

[television]

Errr

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=9495

This can done and once done the kph becomes switchable:rock:Reading all of the threads on this subject does not alter the EU ruling that Both must be displayed at the same time, this is also stated in WIS.

Whether or not you choose to do it is up to you, this does not alter the ruling and thats all I have said

[R2D2]

The Speedo doesn't get checked in an MOT. I'll try and get you the current test details.

From the gov website. An MOT tester checks..
Vehicle identification number - a vehicle identification number must be permanently displayed and legible on a vehicle first used on or after 1 August 1980

Registration plate - condition, security, legibility and format of letters/numbers

Lights - condition, operation, security and correct colour. The headlamps will also be checked to see if the aim is correct

Steering and suspension - correct condition and operation

Wipers and washers - operate to give the driver a clear view of the road

Windscreen - condition and drivers view of the road

Horn - correct operation and type

Seatbelts - all seatbelts installed are checked for type, condition, operation and security. All compulsory seatbelts must be in place

Seats - front seats secure. Front and rear backseats can be secured in the upright position

Fuel system - no leaks, fuel cap fastens correctly and seals securely. The fuel cap will need to be opened. Make sure the key is available

Exhaust emissions - vehicle meets the requirement for exhaust emission. These vary on the age and fuel type of the vehicle

Exhaust system - complete, secure, without serious leaks and silences effectively

Vehicle structure - free from excessive corrosion or damage in specific areas. No sharp edges

Doors - open and close. Latch securely in closed position. Front doors should open from inside and outside the vehicle. Rear doors may need to be opened to gain access to testable items

Mirrors - presence, condition and security

Wheels and tyres - condition, security, tyre size and type, and tread depth. Spare tyres are not tested

Brakes - condition, operation and performance (efficiency test). Suitable vehicles will be tested on a roller brake tester. Vehicles such as those with permanent 4-wheel drive will be tested either on a suitable road using a properly calibrated and maintained decelerometer or, if one is installed at the test station, a plate brake tester.

The only mention of the Speedo is in type approval (item 17) but once MB have obtained VTA then your MOT tester isn't interested-as proved when I forgot to turn the kph back on for my cars first mot recently. Basically the car remains able to display both but outside temp is more use unless you take the car abroad.

[st13phil]

Reading all of the threads on this subject does not alter the EU ruling that Both must be displayed at the same time, this is also stated in WIS.Malcolm, it's rare that I disagree with your posts, but I will on this one.

If what you say is true regarding an EU requirement for the simultaneous display of vehicle speed in both MPH and KPH then that makes every UK-spec R56 MINI ever registered in the UK illegal - which I doubt. The analogue speedo face is marked in MPH only, and while there is a facility to display a supplemental digital speedo in the tachometer (freely switchable between MPH and KPH), even if selected this display is automatically overridden by vehicle warning messages - ergo no simultaneous speed in MPH and KPH is possible at all under certain circumstances.

Perhaps Munich and Stuttgart have a different interpretation of the regulatory requirements (e.g. mandatory to display vs. possible to display)?

[DansSlk]

I have this info in black and white from DfT i will have to dig it out but it echo's what others have said i.e the vehicle must be capable of displaying both MPH and KPH, it does not have to display both at the same time but it must be user switchable.

Its an error on MB's part in fact they freely admit this behind the scenes and i believe they also say the same to customers who query it, they are happy for the change to be made.

Unfortunately they don't make it easy on DAS.

[LastMinute]

The new Renault Scénic only displays one unit on the speedometer. (It's digital, and there's only one display. I assume you can change it between m.p.h. and km/h, though.)

If you're really interested, the ECE speedometer equipment approval regulations are here (http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/39rv1e.pdf) [PDF].

[R2D2]

Thanks for the link. This one made me smile!
5.2.3. The reference temperature at the speedometer shall be 23 " 5 °C;

[television]

This is a discussion forum, I have only said what I have followed for the last 2½ years, with my own car the KMH read out cannot be changed to MPH.

It will be nice to see what Danslk comes up with

[whitenemesis]

Originally my car had the permanent kph display. The handbook shows how one can change to Temp - "except for UK cars where this option is disabled"

I have had this "UK Mode" disabled and now I have the choice :)

If I get to drive on the Continent then of course I will select the kph display! :rolleyes: :D

[HughJarse]

This is a discussion forum, I have only said what I have followed for the last 2½ years, with my own car the KMH read out cannot be changed to MPH.

It will be nice to see what Danslk comes up with


I think youre getting mixed up Malcolm, Im sure it has to be capable of showing both, but not on at the same time all the time or we'd all be in trouble.

I can see how silly this is too; I imported my MX5 from Japan, I subsequently changed the dials to MPH from KMH. There was no other way of reading kph, the dials I put on didnt have it.

It passed every MOT for several years.

[Diesel Benz]

I think youre getting mixed up Malcolm, Im sure it has to be capable of showing both, but not on at the same time all the time or we'd all be in trouble.

I can see how silly this is too; I imported my MX5 from Japan, I subsequently changed the dials to MPH from KMH. There was no other way of reading kph, the dials I put on didnt have it.

It passed every MOT for several years.

You are referring to how it has been in the past. New rules are invented every day.

I really don't know the rules and am confused on what the UK cars do but I'm sure MB would not have implemented something for the UK market only, unless it was mandatory.

It appears a coincidence that the simplest approach for them made it impossible to have the temp reading constantly on, if I understood right. That isn't good at all.

I'm assuming that the regulation Malcolm was referring to, just resulted to the unfortunate compromise for UK MB cars.

[Diesel Benz]

By the way, the W221 already has a different approach, the temp reading and the "secondary speed reading", miles in my case, appears as a small reading outside the main speedo area. The additional speed reading probably is forced on in UK cars, any W221 owner to comment this?

[television]

OK I read an article that say that says the cars must be capable of displaying MPH and KMH No where does it say singly or at the same time.

I do not follow other cars and what they can and cant do, with many of these things its how you read it and what you want to read into it.

Not easy some times

[LastMinute]

As has been mentioned several times, there's a big difference between the standards that a car has to meet to achieve ECE type approval (to permit it to be registered in this country) and the items that are checked during an MOT test (to try to ensure its ongoing roadworthiness).

So it's not impossible, or even surprising, that a car that is not strictly road legal can pass an MOT test.


No where does it say singly or at the same time.
That's the point. At some stage, Mercedes-Benz have interpreted the unclear regulations as meaning that both must be displayed; the way they elected to implement that for U.K. cars was to force the 'secondary' display to km/h and not permit outside temperature to be displayed there. Other manufacturers have interpreted the regulations differently; they display a single unit on their speedometer but allow it to be changed. Both solutions have resulted in ECE type approval.

[HughJarse]

OK I read an article that say that says the cars must be capable of displaying MPH and KMH No where does it say singly or at the same time.

I do not follow other cars and what they can and cant do, with many of these things its how you read it and what you want to read into it.

Not easy some times

Yes I agree; Most of us weren't last in line when brains were being given out and we're struggling to come to an agreement. Is this because we can't see the point of this law?

Surely as long the car can be made to show KMH if one wanted to travel abroad, the same as lights can be made to pseudo shine to the right then having a more accurate digital mph readout is better?

[LastMinute]

more accurate digital mph readout
How is it more accurate? And what is it more accurate than?

[HughJarse]

How is it more accurate? And what is it more accurate than?
My speedo shows at 5-10 intervals so showing your exact speed is more accurate.

[LastMinute]

No, it's not. It's more precise.

[davidjpowell]

That's the point. At some stage, Mercedes-Benz have interpreted the unclear regulations as meaning that both must be displayed; the way they elected to implement that for U.K. cars was to force the 'secondary' display to km/h and not permit outside temperature to be displayed there. Other manufacturers have interpreted the regulations differently; they display a single unit on their speedometer but allow it to be changed. Both solutions have resulted in ECE type approval.

Renault on the Espace only show MPH in digital. It can be changed to KM for Euro driving, although even the dealers don't all know how.

I'd love to have the temp on display instead of KM.

David

[richard]

As has probably been said on this thread, comand.co.uk can do this for you (pm alfie) in the woking (surrey) area. Along with showing remaining fuel in the tank (alongside remaining distance on most, or on a new screen on the W221) and various other tricks such as key dependeance, c/f temp switching, 12/24 hour clock switching, enabling of tyre pressure loss warner on newer cars that dont have it, auto folding mirrors on most facelifted C classes with folding mirrors etc.

On the R230 (SL) you can also get a clock in the right hand display like on the SLR - which is where i always look for the clock since I drive a couple of MBs and its normally somewhere in the cluster not on top of the dashboard like the SL.

Richard

[MBManInKen]

This sounds all suspiciously like one of those Euro myths. :confused:

The official EU document that Lastminute posted does nowhere say that speedometers must display kph values, only that in the UK, there must be an indication in mph on the speedometer.

Looking at the DVLA website (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/ImportingAndExportingAVehicle/DG_071781), this seems to be confirmed:


speedometer (checked to ensure the speed is shown in miles per hour or that the speedometer has dual mph and km/h markings)

I can't find any legal document, ruling or explanatory commentary anywhere on the European Commission's website that states that all EU vehicles must have kph markings - only that in the UK there must be mph markings present, either by themselves or in addition to the kph marking.

[HughJarse]

No, it's not. It's more precise.

Thanks but I dont need picking up on my grammar/syntax/vocab etc.

ac·cu·rate http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Faccurate) /ˈækhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngyərhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ak-yer-it] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1.free from error or defect; consistent with a standard, rule, or model; precise; exact.

Or if you like Cambridge Dictionary
accurate
adjective
correct, exact and without any mistakes:


I'm sure you'll agree seeing a two digit number is a more accurate way of knowing your speed than a needle and 3 lines indicating a numerical interval of 5 ( or 10 with 3 ).

[television]

As has probably been said on this thread, comand.co.uk can do this for you (pm alfie) in the woking (surrey) area. Along with showing remaining fuel in the tank (alongside remaining distance on most, or on a new screen on the W221) and various other tricks such as key dependeance, c/f temp switching, 12/24 hour clock switching, enabling of tyre pressure loss warner on newer cars that dont have it, auto folding mirrors on most facelifted C classes with folding mirrors etc.

On the R230 (SL) you can also get a clock in the right hand display like on the SLR - which is where i always look for the clock since I drive a couple of MBs and its normally somewhere in the cluster not on top of the dashboard like the SL.

Richard

I would love to meet Alfie, but I cant do anything until the spring, just to see what changes could be made to my car. Maybe the tyre pressure monitors, the speed sensor one.

[BTB 500]

My German in-laws' Opel Zafira had an analog speedo marked only in kph. I don't think the cluster display displayed speed in anything.

My Vito speedo is marked in MPH only, but as with other M-Bs it's possible to select a digital kph display on the cluster.

[LastMinute]

The official EU document that Lastminute posted
UNECE, not EU.


does nowhere say that speedometers must display kph values
I did read it that way myself at first, but I think that the requirement in paragraph 5.1.1 that a speedometer be graduated in km/h implies that it displays km/h.


I'm sure you'll agree
Given that I felt compelled to pick you up on it earlier, I'm sure you'll agree that I won't agree - but I'm not going to labour the point.

[whitenemesis]

Thanks but I dont need picking up on my grammar/syntax/vocab etc.

ac·cu·rate http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Faccurate)/ˈækhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngyərhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngɪt/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ak-yer-it]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1.free from error or defect; consistent with a standard, rule, or model; precise; exact.

Or if you like Cambridge Dictionary
accurate
adjective
correct, exact and without any mistakes:


I'm sure you'll agree seeing a two digit number is a more accurate way of knowing your speed than a needle and 3 lines indicating a numerical interval of 5 ( or 10 with 3 ).

I'm not sure this is correct. One can be very precise but totally inaccurate.

A digital readout is more precise but not necessarily more accurate. Accuracy comes from how well it has been calibrated

[television]

And it can only be as fast in updating as the gate will permit, not a major problem with a speedo, and this can only be a 3 digit read out otherwise it would be a blur some of the time

[LastMinute]

it would be a blur some of the time
Depends how heavily you filter it...

Even at a precision of 1 m.p.h. I imagine you'd need some filtering to avoid jitter? (I have no idea what the sample rate and sensitivity of the sensors typically are in practice.)

[television]

Depends how heavily you filter it...

Even at a precision of 1 m.p.h. I imagine you'd need some filtering to avoid jitter? (I have no idea what the sample rate and sensitivity of the sensors typically are in practice.)

Yes its a very low count even to 3½ digits

[HughJarse]

I guess Im in the minority then as I think reading a 2 digit display is a more accurate way of telling my speed than a needle that has 3 lines showing a scale of 10 units.
Yes I appreciate that speedos are out anyway and I dont care how the gate is greased as if you go down that route the speedo needle would be constantly vibrating and the thickness of the needle and calibration lines would be in question too.

[whitenemesis]

I guess Im in the minority then as I think reading a 2 digit display is a more accurate way of telling my speed than a needle that has 3 lines showing a scale of 10 units.
Yes I appreciate that speedos are out anyway and I dont care how the gate is greased as if you go down that route the speedo needle would be constantly vibrating and the thickness of the needle and calibration lines would be in question too.


Yes, one can more accurately read the digital display. That display is more precise at displaying the data than the speedo but that doesn't mean the data displayed by either is accurate! :)

[MBManInKen]

Thanks but I dont need picking up on my grammar/syntax/vocab etc.

:rolleyes:

In science, precision and accuracy have very specific and different meanings. Lastminute was quite correct in his comment.

Precision versus Accuracy (http://www.dunnamphoto.com/precision_vs__accuracy.htm)

[television]

I guess Im in the minority then as I think reading a 2 digit display is a more accurate way of telling my speed than a needle that has 3 lines showing a scale of 10 units.
Yes I appreciate that speedos are out anyway and I dont care how the gate is greased as if you go down that route the speedo needle would be constantly vibrating and the thickness of the needle and calibration lines would be in question too.

You cant have a speedo under 3½ digits, well 3 digits would take it 999 mph.

I have made no comment on the accuracy so far, but it must be more accurate, if only from the angle that you are sitting. All high quality meter movements have a mirror to overcome this problem.

With my 230 speedo I can sit there counting the lines to see how much over I am, with a digital you cant miss the exact figures, if it says 72.5 then thats the end of it, with no maybe 73.5.

I was thinking on the gate time, but any digi counter can count faster than the car can accelerate or slow down. As long as the 2nd digit was blanked when updating then it could be great.

With a stick thermometer you have to stare at it to take a reading, with my digi ones I just look up and there it is 6.9c and thats the end of it

[MBManInKen]

UNECE, not EU.

Sorry :rolleyes:

I did read it that way myself at first, but I think that the requirement in paragraph 5.1.1 that a speedometer be graduated in km/h implies that it displays km/h.


That's a matter of interpretation, and international legislation/regulation is by its nature often "vague" in a sense, not in the least because it has to fit fundamentally different systems (anglo-saxon legal interpretation versus continental - napoleonic - law is tricky business).

Perhaps your interpretation is right, although it would require quite a few solicitors to decide on this :D ;).

[LastMinute]

OK - I said I wouldn't... :rolleyes:

if you like Cambridge Dictionary
Cambridge?! Wrong blue, dear chap... ;) I found this (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/precise?view=uk).


Precision versus Accuracy (http://www.dunnamphoto.com/precision_vs__accuracy.htm)
In that instance, for his particular purposes, the author favours precision over accuracy. In the case of a speedometer, though, I think I'd rather have it the other way round!


That's a matter of interpretation
Quite. That's what I was trying to get at earlier.

[MBManInKen]

In that instance, for his particular purposes, the author favours precision over accuracy. In the case of a speedometer, though, I think I'd rather have it the other way round!

Oh, yes, I quite agree with your preference - I was just trying to find a simple real-world example of the difference between them.

As someone with an occupation in which maths play a large role, I have always found (a) the difference between accuracy and precision a fairly straightforward business, but (b) often am confronted by the fact that many people don't know this - it's not intuitive apparently :confused:. That's why I tried to find a real-world example.

In science, accuracy is very often preferred over precision.

[HughJarse]

OK - I said I wouldn't... :rolleyes:


Cambridge?! Wrong blue, dear chap... ;) I found this (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/precise?view=uk).



LOL good job we dont have boats then,

Ok could I explain it better if I said that I can accurately tell what speed the car is trying to tell me Im travelling at using a digital readout rather than analogue and the digital readout is more precise than an anologue one?

[LastMinute]

In science, accuracy is very often preferred over precision.
And in speed cameras, I hope...

[television]

As my car has a speed signal I may try and make one in the spring and just see how well I can do it, as with Sat Nav you could re calibrate when you tyres are half worn.


I am going to bed :)

[LastMinute]

HughJ: I know exactly what you mean; I was just getting a bit carried away trying to police the use of our language...

The significant advantage an analogue display of speed has over a digital one is that it makes it a lot easier to determine the speed trend.

[skymastor]

After just coming home from being to the theatre and in addition a very good evening in the kneipe taking a relaxing drink and a few games of pool with my lady, I was amazed at all your posts. However, I see someone has stated that Alfie can do this mod, but how can it be done? Is it a Star issue, bearing in mind the stealer I took it to said it was impossible! I'm still not sure.... :confused:

Whats the craic fella's??

[HughJarse]

Imagine the scene; sitting round the table drinking large amounts of real ale are ...waldorf and statler and the Two Ronnies... as they drink they discuss, as they discuss they drink... now read back over that last posts and you'll generally get the idea :-)

I believe it is a star mod, but as previoulsy said PM alfie andhe'll tell you yay or nay !

[skymastor]

Bed time me thinks... :p

[LastMinute]

What - there was a serious question before all that waffle? :)

the stealer I took it to said it was impossible!
That just means he couldn't be bothered to do it...

I think that somewhere among the noise you'll find the assertion that it can be changed using Star Diagnosis.

[whitenemesis]

What - there was a serious question before all that waffle? :)


That just means he couldn't be bothered to do it...

I think that somewhere among the noise you'll find the assertion that it can be changed using Star Diagnosis.


Been there, done it :D....

Pass the bottle, (hic) :crazy: